In the third Voice of the Duck Hunter Podcast recorded live at the inaugural Delta Waterfowl Duck Hunters Expo in Little Rock, AR, Joel met up with Andrew Murray & Tyler Jordan from Realtree, Delta’s “Official Camo Conservation Partner." They talk about developing camo patterns, the release of Realtree's new waterfowl camo pattern: Max-7, as well as the pitfalls of being a creative artist.
https://deltawaterfowl.org/million-duck-campaign/
In the third Voice of the Duck Hunter Podcast recorded live at the inaugural Delta Waterfowl Duck Hunters Expo in Little Rock, AR, Joel met up with Andrew Murray & Tyler Jordan from Realtree, Delta’s “Official Camo Conservation Partner." They talk about developing camo patterns, the release of Realtree's new waterfowl camo pattern: Max-7, as well as the pitfalls of being a creative artist.
https://deltawaterfowl.org/million-duck-campaign/
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Delta Waterfowl’s the Voice of the Duck Hunter podcast. Today's episode is the third of eight podcasts recorded at Delta's National Dock Hunters Expo this past July. I sat down with Andrew Murray and Tyler Jordan from Realtree as Delta's official camo conservation partner. We talked about the creation and launch of Realtree’s new waterfowl camo Max7. Let's bring in today's guests. Welcome to the podcast, guys. Thanks for having us, Joel. Oh, you're welcome. Very, very excited to be here. And it's been fun. You know, it's great. So you guys, where do you guys live exactly? Well, the headquarters for Realtrees in Columbus, Georgia. So we live in Columbus, Georgia. Okay. Yeah. I was born and raised in Columbus. Yep. Born and raised. Yeah, that's pretty special. So, you know, guys, Realtree has been an amazing company, amazing partner for Delta Waterfowl. And I just have to start out by saying thank you. I mean, the, the sponsorship opportunities, the support that you guys provide us, where we can do the work that we do as the Duck Hunters organization, you know, little things from, you know, sponsoring one of the stages here at the Expo to, you know, sponsoring our, our duck ID guide, you know, that we sell to, to, to new hunters. And so we can't thank you guys enough. Appreciate it. And it's been a fun partnership over the years. I remember, at least for me, I've been with the company ten years. And the first time you guys walked in a different faces, I think at the time, walked into a SHOT show and sat down with the then VP Ray Lynch and went through and he's like telling me why you guys are so much better than the other conservation groups or how you guys are like the duck hunters, you know, conservation group. And I was like, Yeah, I'm all in. I was like, These guys are awesome. You know, it's it's been a great partnership. And, you know, conservation obviously runs really deep with everything we do it Realtree. And, you know, we can't we can't really thank Delta enough for, you know, having us in their family And being a part of this first expo has been a fun experience. The show just started for everybody that's listening right now, and it's just opened up. That's right. That's great. So one of the things that I like to do is, you know, I don't want to just talk about the company, you know, because I think a company is made up of the people that work for it. And I'd love for our listeners to get to to know Realtree, get to know people a little bit more. So I'd love for the listeners to get to know you guys. Andrew why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself. Not about Realtree. Yeah. So for those obviously no one knows me, unlike Tyler, but I've been with the Realtree now ten years. But originally I grew up in California. I lived and was born there for 21 years. And I wasn't a hunter. I was into the outdoors and hiking and fishing. And it wasn't till I went to school here in Arkansas, just 45 minutes north of here, and I went to school. Some of the guys who now operate behind the scenes, Duck commander. And I remember going there and those guys trying to get me to Duck Hunt. And I was like, Man, it's just I don't know, it sounds cool, but I don't know. And he's like, one of them. I went to school with one of the nieces and cousins to Phil Robertson, and they're like, Hey, you want to come down and meet the duck commanders? Like, I don't know who that is. And Phil's going to be here later today over at the booth. And I was like, No, I don't. I don't think so. And fast forward about seven years later, I went to school for graphic design and marketing major design major. And I was in working in advertising agencies for companies. I had clientele like Bushnell, Remington Firearms released the VersaMax at that time Toyota fishing, and then got into Under Armor when UA Hunt was a big thing. So that's where I kind of got into fall in love with it. But when we were doing the Remmington VersaMax and we were releasing that, I turned to one of the guys I was working with. I was like, Hey, can you take me on my first duck hunt? I really want to know what this is about. You know, I'm one of those guys that if you're going to be marketing something or talking to something and trying to be authentic, which I think that's the key in advertising, is being authentic to the consumer. So I wanted to really know what it was about and experiences. So they took me on my first duck hunt it was in Oklahoma and the first time we had some green wing teal buzz by, little left to right action shot once and killed it. And I was like, okay, I get it. Like I get it. Like, and ever since then it was working with guys like Michael Waddell and then going down to the Realtree farms to do a photo shoot and hanging out with the Realtree guys. And they had an opening as a creative director at Realtree. And I was like, they asked me, you know, Hey, would you be interested in the job? Because they saw what I was doing and how I was operating. I was like, Yeah, I'd be really interested. So I came back home from Georgia and I told my wife I was like, Hey, what do you think about moving to Georgia? She's like, Yeah, I think it's pretty good. I yeah, yeah, it's okay. And she's a Oklahoma girl. So we flew out there and that was ten years ago. So I've been the creative director at Realtree for the past ten years, but my roles changed here recently. And really, when we started doing the Realtree fishing brand, I started helping out a little bit more on the pattern development side, on the fishing stuff and then we've had some people that kind of change from our pattern development side and working really well with Tyler’s dad Bill. Mr. Jordan and how we get along. So I've come on full time to, to do the pattern development now and design the cameras alongside his dad and Bill and kind of work this out. And Max7 for us which we're excited to launch here at the show was kind of my first hands on experience working on a actual hunting camo pattern. But I'm a huge now ever since that first teal I shot, like I'm a hardcore hunt, you know, 20 plus days probably the most hardcore waterfowl person in the office, I would say, you and Brian Domin Yeah, you're two of the most hardcore waterfowl people we have at the company. So it's so Tyler, this is like, you know, Bill's bill's gotten to this place. If you talk to him about really wanting to have multiple people deep and he's, he's wanting to see the, you know, the future and pass the baton off to Tyler a lot on his responsibilities and, and kind of get the younger people in the company to take on more responsibility. So, you know, Max seven was Tyler's first, you know, real experience working on a pattern as well. So he kind of got the kick start and he can kind of talk about the vision that started. And I kind of took that from where they were at and took it to completion. So, yeah, it's been fun. I want to push that one back just a little bit. Yeah, go ahead. But we have to go there because that's I mean, that's the cool part of the story. But let's not assume that everybody knows who you are. Yeah. Let's talk about your talk about just your background, who you are. Well, you know, I guess it's hard for me to talk about myself without mentioning anything and Realtree just because I've kind of grown up and around this industry for so long. But, you know, ever since I was three or four years old, I grew up turkey hunting, deer hunting alongside my dad. I'm sure you know, for people that remember the TNN days you know, watching Realtree outdoors on TNN, then the transition to ESPN, you know, I feel like I've always been in the woods, ever since I was really little. But I'm not a waterfowl hunter necessarily. I mean, I like waterfowl hunting, but you know, growing up where we did in Georgia, it's not, it's not a good waterfowl state, right? You know, I just, I think I went on one duck cut with my dad when I was 12 years old. I went to Arkansas, had a great hunt, but it wasn't until I graduated from the University of Mississippi and it wasn't until I actually went there that I didn't go my first real duck hunt And then I realized when I moved to Mississippi, going to college, duck hunting as a religion out there at Ole Miss. And, you know, Arkansas, you know, getting to hunt there some when I was in school, those four or five years, you know, I developed a love and a passion for it, not as much as maybe the turkey hunting and deer hunting that I'm used to. But, you know, then moving back home, kind of working in marketing, maybe wearing a few different hats in the company, just trying to learn every aspect of the business as I can. And then, you know, I, I liked the pattern side of it and Dad's creative process just because I've been involved just with him, just through watching ever since. I can remember watching maybe Realtree all purpose and seeing that from Realtree extra. It's a Realtree edge, even Realtree. Max5 and whenever Dad was kind of mentioning to me about doing another waterfowl pattern, I'm like, Why would you want to change up from what we have with Max five just because it's been so successful? It's been kind of a staple in this industry. But Dad was like, We can do it better. There's something we can do. I think it's just like any artist that feels like, man, you know, you let enough time go by. You think, Man, I can I can improve this from what it once was. And so, you know, kind of being on the ground floor with that and actually kind of getting my hands, you know, deep and involved on that process was a lot of fun working with Andrew, Dad and many others in the company. So it's been it's been a fun ride. Was there was there ever a point or you considered doing something else, or was it always part of your vision to be part of the family business? You know, I think like, you know, when I went to school, I was when I graduated high school, I was kind of I was like, man, what if I just go and start working in the business right away? That did cross my mind, but my dad was like that. My mom and dad both supported me in going off to school. You know, spending I not to cut you off. Yeah. I mean, at the time because I was there in the in the company, but I remember when you were going off to Ol Miss and that little transition, there is a there is a time when I know not that he didn't want to work at Realtree and be part of it and keep that on. But there was a time in your your life there a couple of years where he was really wanting to go off and do something just to get out, away from it for a little bit and come back and, you know, a little bit stronger just to experience things, Right? Yeah, I think there's four or five years that because I mean, I was like my graduated high school. I was like, man, I'll just go right into the business. But luckily mom and dad and I'm glad they did now because I even met my wife out in college at Ole Miss. But, you know, they said you need to go experience and figure out what you want to do. And those four or five years were were great for me just to kind of go off and do my own thing for a while and just have some separation because I've always grown up in and around the business hunting, which is still, you know, what I what I did even when I was in school. But I found my way back and, you know, I'm happy, happy just kind of, you know, working full time there now, Realtree. But it never really crossed my mind. On going and choosing another career path. I knew if I didn't do something at Realtree, I'd still be in this industry in some capacity. Okay. Yeah. Forgive me for wondering, but I grew up from a long line of hunters, and so I've said this before to others. I said it had been weird for me not to be a hunter. Just. I mean, I don't remember. I don't remember my first hunt because, yeah, I was too young. But for for you, Tyler, where hunting was part of the public eye. Did you guys get out privately and do a lot of hunting? Was that a big component of your childhood to. You know, it was. The first three deer I took were not on camera with a bow. And so that was that was great for me. And then and then these last three or four years, I've shot many turkeys off camera, which is kind of you know, I feel like years ago would have been really weird to say. I feel like it would have been a wasted opportunity not to capture something, to get it on film, put it up on YouTube, or put it on a Realtree outdoors. But, you know, just that solitude and being out there alone and experience and how hunting was maybe meant to be. I've always been used to having multiple, you know, one, one person or more with me in the woods. And so it's been nice, you know, whether it's just going on a doe hunt on on our farm just by myself. So I was going to say, you do a lot of land management that's not filmed. Yeah, that type of stuff. Yeah. There's, there's a lot that goes on just, you know, year round obviously for deer hunting and turkeys that you do, you know a lot alone and by yourself. So yeah, it's it's nice to kind of go and just kind of, you know refresh and and go out there alone hunting. Well it does, but I've done a bit of video hunting over my career and it does put a little different, I guess, pressure, pressure might be the word, but but it really changes it. So I think that's I'm glad to hear that you've had this opportunities to get out. Yeah, I would say too, like Realtree outdoors, the way it's filmed versus what we do currently now on YouTube, like I'm hosting a digital show on YouTube, Realtree road trips. But it always felt to me like when you were doing Realtreeoutdoors at the time we had 20 episodes that we would film for outdoor channel where you just felt pressure from getting from one state to the next and trying to have a successful hunt, or at least just an encounter. So you get to film an episode, but you know, then the digital stuff, it's more about the journey than it really is just the maybe the kill or the success of a hunt. And so, you know, I'm kind of able to slow down and enjoy things a little bit more instead of feeling pressure of moving from one place to the next, you know, just to get something on camera. So that's been kind of the beauty of the transition of the digital and the YouTube world that we that we live in. Look at some of our first duck hunts me and you went on. And on here in Arkansas, we didn't have a camera guy with us. You know, I have my camera and just to take some stills and stuff, but I mean, I don't know how many times that it doesn't snow in Arkansas very often. But like the one time one of the best hunts we've been on, we were in flooded timber, snowing and had a limit of mallards. And it was one of those times it was like, I wish we had a camera with us. Right, Right. But yeah, I mean, a lot of the duck hunts that he had been on, or at least we've been on originally like weren't filmed at all. Yeah, well, if you have a successful hunt with all the cameras, I mean, you're doing something right? Yeah, that's right. Well, it's a good set up, so that's good. Hey, Tyler, you were talking before we started hitting the record button. You were talking about some of your dads, I guess you're about to say that your how your dad got into camouflage and developing camouflage. I think that was kind of interesting to me. Yeah, You know, it's a it's pretty cool story. You know, back in the day and not that I was alive for any of this, but, you know, Walmart and other retailers, it was mainly military camouflage. You know, I think tree bark was another one that was very popular back then when dad was getting his start. But my dad is a marketing major. He graduated from the University of Mississippi. But I think what a lot of people don't know about dad, it's not really well known as he's a really good artist. He can draw really good. Like I've seen him, you know, just sketch things and I'm like, Wow, you're you're really, really good. So, you know, the first three or four patterns that that we had at real trade, Dad actually hand drew himself the leaves, the bark, the background. And just to have that kind of visualization is something that I think a lot of people don't really know. You know, I think, you know, while we do a lot of stuff graphically over computer now, it's still you have to kind of pull it out of dad's head. Well, he doesn't do that part. He still has a vision for what a pattern look and feels like. And I really do believe that's kind of what is separated maybe us from maybe the competition for a long time. I'm sure dad is still very hands on. There's a lot to be learned there from his and from his expertise. And an aide said, And if you're around him and designing a camo pattern, it eats at him that he doesn't know the computer programs like yeah if I if he actually if someone willing to to do the time but we think it's too dangerous to teach him how to do all the computer graphics stuff he would go he wouldn't he wouldn't leave the computer. Really. Yeah he he talks about all the time about how he wishes he could do that because it's all in his head. He knows exactly what he wants or how he wants, the color tones, everything else, what can be done. And he would play with it all day long. But, you know, it's just the advancement of technology. And, you know, he uses people, I guess, like me, you know, hands and stuff. And, you know, we interpret and he we go back and forth and feed off of one another. And it's it's a different dynamic. But yeah, his artistic level is still I mean that's why I you know, I just admire him for that. That's a fact of, you know you could be 74 I think. Yeah. And he's he's been doing this for as long as he has, but his passion has not dimmed one bit and his vision and what he's doing and how he pushes you and how he wants to see stuff. And it's, you know, a lot of the patterns you could see there, they might be slight evolutions or slight adaptations, but everything is the reason. And there's a and sometimes you look at and be like, I don't know, I don't know if this is going to work or really Bill. And, you know, you go try it and you're like, Dang, it worked. Yeah, well, you know, it's just like ever since Realtree AP at the time, I think AP was in 2007 and I don't know how old I would have been then, but when he was talking about coming out with another pattern to replace Realtree AP, I said, Why? Why AP’s been so successful. How could you make a pattern any better than that? He said, Tyler, enough time has gone by. We can we can work and tweak and try something different and have a different spin on what what another pattern, another generation of patterns might be. Yeah. And I'm like, I just don't know. Like I had doubts. And even moving from Realtree extra to Realtree edge like you have, why would you why would you change again? But he proves he proved me wrong time and time again that there is a, you know, a market out there for something maybe even slightly different. Well, he's and he's just the type of person, like if you know him and you know, his personality, he's a perfectionist. And so I know I'll bring this up. Tyler loves Realtree original. Absolutely loves it. Like that's his favorite pattern. He's pushing us like we've got some samples, but like, Tyler's wants to, you know, do a bunch of these throwback patterns. But to be honest, and Bill's talked about this is the reason why I'll say it. Like for Bill, he looks at that pattern as his first failure. That's how he views it. Yeah. So I view it as heritage. I'm sure a lot of us do. Yeah. I mean, that's where Realtree got it Start was the first Realtree original. Well dad views that is like he's done he could do so much better so when he looks at that he looks at it. It's like, you know, when you're a kindergartner and you did your first little son sketch or like family photo, our sketch of your stick figures, he looks is that that is on that level and he just he cringes when he sees it because he knows how much better it could have been, could have how it can be. So each time we come up with a pattern, it's really not that we're coming out with a new pattern. To come up with a pattern, it'll still he'll, he'll look at those patterns daily and he just knows what he can do better. So he finally talks us into working with him to improve the pattern and make the improvements that he wanted to make all along, basically is how it goes and technology finally catches up to where we can maybe do some of the stuff he wants. I mean, Realtree original. What this is what I think is so cool about it. I mean, he sketched it. He drew that first pattern. So I'm like and that is that's part of our legacy. That's where Realtree got it start. That's why we're we've been here for 35 plus years. But he views it as just, man, that is something I'm embarrassed of almost Yeah. Because that was my first. Maybe not failure, but I think the pattern may have spent a year and a half to two years in the market, and then he was on to draw in something else and better and different. So he views that as maybe the first rendition of a Realtree. And everything we've done since then has been a drastic improvement. Yeah, I think I'm not an artist. I don't study paintings, but I do understand in general that artists typically don't like some of their best work, at least best work viewed by the public. So your dad's an artist? Yeah, I guess he's a perfectionist, is how I call it. But he always is looking and striving for to be better. Which is, like I said before, I really feel like what has separated us from everybody else. No disrespect to any competition, but Dad is just always and constantly striving to improve and be better. And when he lets enough time go by, he's ready to go. Everybody's like, Why do you why do you want to come out with another pattern? You said it. He just feels like he can do it better than they did before. And I mean, we get on timelines of, you know, we're developing a chemical pattern. X seven was four years in the making. It may be a little bit longer. And, you know, for him, he would still tweak it and perfected. But you know, eventually we got we start talking to the partners and say, hey, we're going to be doing this because we've got to prepare them to move out of a pattern. And, you know, sometimes we get hung up on ourselves because Bill still wanted to make tweaks like he still wants to perfect. And we're finally like, Bill, okay, we hit that deadline. We can't we got to put it to bed and you can move on to your next one. You know, that's every pattern. Every pattern, every patterns like that. But that's kind of how it is. We finally have to just tell him we can't do it anymore. We can't make any more tweaks. But as a tortured artist, as some might say, I mean, that's what it is. He's a tortured artist. And, you know, it's like Andrew said, a lot of our gun companies, clothing companies, I mean, you got to let a lot of these companies just for timelines of their product a year and a half, sometimes two years in advance on the guns. So, I mean, he's got to have that print finished and completed by a certain date and every time it's tough for dad to just put a coffin on it, you know, And then the process of how we do chemical patterns, I mean, you see, you know, I understand that there's the trend of going back to the I think the heritage patterns. And it's funny because the cycle of, you know, Realtree type camo patterns that were around before stick and linen came out, patterns kind of came into play. And it seems like that's the trend that's coming back is, you know, the more abstract digital patterns, Realtree type patterns. And so you're going through the cycle of all this. But it is funny because when you go and try to create a type of pattern like what we do, which is highly photorealistic, it's based off of all these millions of colors. But when you go to to actually get that developed, the process of that is so much more cumbersome than to do a daisy pattern or Realtree type pattern. And because you're just, you know, limited in colors and everything else. And so I feel like that's another part that people really don't understand about our business is the development side and how much goes into it. And that's why really there's only maybe two, two or three of us in the industry that that do it, you know, the way that we do it. And we've got to a place where we know it's a labor of love. And, you know, again, it goes to what Bill has his thing of wanting to be perfect and it's his, you know, the mentality of what would you rather be like, resemble, you know, what you hundred are actually look like. And so, you know, and we know that that's what he wants to do and that's why our name is Realtree and we try to resemble things that look real. But by doing that and through his perfectionist, like in the process of that and to get it right is so much more difficult than I think the average consumer not. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I feel like I'm going to take this opportunity because I, I feel like camouflage has two purposes. One of them is it has to be that the consumer must like how it looks because you're selling camouflage to a person. Because, I mean, we're at an expo, actually, surprisingly, there's not that many people wearing camouflage, but camouflage is is a color right for many people like you. I like blues, I like blacks. I like wearing camouflage today. So that has to be part of the consideration as something that's saying that's so true. Before it disappears in the woods, it's got to disappear off the shelf. Okay? It's got to have shelf appeal as well. Yeah. We always say it's got to have shelf appeal. But at the same time, at the end of the day, that shelf appeal has to be effective in the woods, like that's in the marsh or wherever it is. Like. So we look at obviously the effectiveness of it first and foremost, and then you look at it, is it going to look good on the shelf? And so 100%, that's that's always taken to consideration. But we think when you make a pattern that looks esthetically pleasing and we check off all the boxes of what how a camo pattern should be put together and what it should do, then it's not only going to be effective, but it's going to look good on the shelf. That's right. Okay. So I'm curious about the now the function of the camo, you know, taking it to the woods, going hunting. How do you guys what goes into what's the thought process, the approach of of testing developments. You must Sloan It's very, very long like I said, four four years in the making. And until I can talk a little bit about like how it got started and, and you know, the thought process behind that. But when I came to Realtree, we had just launched Extra and then I box five was my first big pattern that I worked on to get out in the market. And so I know when we were trying to go into Max five, one of the key things, mainly because Tyler was out on this and was just getting into duck hunting big time, and what a lot of guys down there were doing was hunting in flooded timber and we didn't want to necessarily make at the time a pattern strictly for hunting timber. We did. Now with Realtree timber like we've, we've perfected it and that there's a long story behind that. A lot of it has to do with we try to put original back out on the market for timber hunting and shut it down. Bill is like now not doing it, so he's like I can do it better. So he came out with timber and he's like, Look at you want original, like here's a timber, look at how much better. And that's the really how and why timber came to the market. Yeah, but with Max five, one of the things we're trying to do is make of Reed's pattern. I worked well in the field, but also could work in most flooded timber type situations. And so that was the thought process. Now when we got into adapting because we did come out with timber with Max seven, we knew that we didn't really need to make a pattern that was going to work in flooded timber because we had that already timber. So what we were trying to do is look at mainly where we like to hunt, which is and Tyler can talk about this is going out to Louisiana and Arkansas and looking at flooded rice fields in the mud and the coloration of that. And he kind of started that off and then got that as the base of it. So, yeah, so yeah, this the start of the pattern was I was working with another one of a couple other people in marketing and Dad said, you know, take this camera. He had a few buddies in Mississippi that have duck clubs. He said, just go get a bunch of pictures. And so sometimes we'll look through those pictures and pick out different elements or just kind of a starting point for for this new pattern, which we didn't have a name for it yet. But I remember I was in Mississippi and I had my Canon camera and I remember looking down and like it was so cool the way that the reeds and then like the breakup and the mud, like the muck, like the pieces of the mud were like in chunks. And it was almost like a, I don't know, like if I saw the pattern, I could show it to you and pointed out. And I was like, man, that is that is a camo pattern. That is a place to start. I'm maybe crazy, Dad. May eight This, but I said, I feel like this is a perfect starting point for us to start layering on top. And I'm like, this is this is this is where maybe this is going to be the background. Well, I took several pictures of that of what I was seeing. And then we took it back and and dad liked it. And then so from that point on and that background of that pattern is where we really started with Matt seven and then with Andrew Dad, you know, going through some of the other images and then going on more photo shoots, that's what people don't understand is like just that one little shoot I was on. We may have taken 15 to 20% of what Max seven ended up being. And then, you know, there's and then probably going to 75% and then going back to 50, then back to 75%. Again, there's just, you know, a constant, you know, tug of war almost in in this pattern and and the final product. But yeah, that's kind of where that's kind of where it started was just, you know, on that photo shoot and getting to know, you know, I've always been pretty intimate. I try to be with the pattern launches and getting to know what the pattern is, why we're doing it, how we're doing it, but actually being part of the development of it. I've look at it completely different because and I feel like it's a little easier for us. You know, we do some of the fishing patterns a lot more abstract. They don't have as much of a story. There's a purpose behind it, maybe a little bit more fashionable, but for us, like when you go trying to do either a deer pattern or a duck pattern or turkey pattern, we know what the environment we're trying to match is. Sure. So for us, for this, like one of the things is Max for I felt like was, you know, obviously a great field pattern. It did really well. But if you were to take it into, you know, some muddy areas or flooded timber, like it wasn't going to be the best. And how we look at how we kind of consider patterns. So at least I feel like we do is we don't we know that our patterns build, build, tries to create patterns for that every day. HUNTER So, you know, we have very few niche patterns, but for the most part, he's very like consumer conscious. So he he knows that he wants to make a pattern. It might not be the best pattern. 99% of time. We feel like it is going to be the best pattern in that environment. But even if it's not the best pattern, it's going to be top two patterns that like in terms of effectiveness. So we build a pattern that's going to work in most places 90% of the time or most of the times or not every time, so that you don't have to go out and buy 17 different camo patterns to make it look like you're going to blend in with all these different places you're going to be going. So it's a it is trying to figure out how the best combination of photography color elements, how we're going to get that depth and contrast and everything into the pattern, and how is that going to hide the human form and silhouette and blend in and as we go through that process, we totally keep in mind what the consumer is going to be doing and how we can honestly, at the end of the day, kind of save the money by having a pattern that's going to be the best in all of most situations. Of all situations, you're going to find yourself hunting. So with Max seven, even though we did have a niche pattern because we everybody we know as duck hunters, because the opportunity is for us to hunt and, you know, green timber down here in Arkansas, like we know that's kind of like a specialty thing unless you live down here. So we know that. So we start looking at what was the almost duck hunting hunt like and how do they hunt? And it's, you know, hedgerow was, you know, potholes off the banks. And I personally am a big natural cover hunter. I think Tyler is too like we'll get in a blind and every now and then if you're with some people who are doing that. But if I'm off on my own, I'm going to use the natural cover around me. And so having that mindset, I want my camo pattern to blend in as much as possible with what I'm in around so I don't have to worry about it. You know, you got to worry about so many different things. We talk about this on a deer hunting site. You got to worry about so many different elements that go into hunting. And our our one of our catchphrases is like, you camo shouldn't be one of them, right? You really shouldn't be worrying about having to be hidden. So, you know, you got to worry about your duck. You know, the ducks even are going to be there. And one of the things with Max7 for us is our tagline. And what we discuss is, you know, from a waterfall perspective is the X, and obviously we are playing off the max x and max, but also the X and duck hunting is where ducks want to be, right? Right. That's the landing spot. That's and, and I don't care. You could have the best decoys set up, the best duck calling the best blind. But if those birds want to be 100 or 200 yards away, they're going to be there. They're going to be there. And I've been on I'm sure you have, too, plenty of hunts. That's more than frustrating. It's like we can't get to that spot. We know that's where the birds want to be because we can't hide. Ball enough are you're with too many people so you can't hide and certain places and so and nothing's more frustrating than just to be a duck on our sitting there and then watch the birds land 200 yards you know where the Xs. Yeah. Can't get there. Yeah. So one of the things and the idea behind what we were trying to do the next seven was create a camo pattern. And we test this out in California this past January with Chad Belding and the Marlow Waterfowl guys, we, and you know, a lot of times when you look snow geese are some of the I feel like some of the harder birds to hunt even though there's so many because there's so many, they got so many eyeballs. So we we actually laid out in just into the decoys and we're just in max seven and we shot 108 and one morning when you're able to not add anything to camouflage and the camo kind of just as you say, like this, that's that's what we're looking for. And anything like as we go about it, like I mean, we're we're trying to think even if you're in a blind, we want to be able to give you a pattern. Like if even if you're going to do an eye for a blind or something, you know, most of times guys are going to buy, even if they buy solid colors, they're going to go in their spray paint and brush it in. But we still think like if you have a pattern that knocks southern pattern there as the base, you're going to be so much better off because it's less work for you. I mean, at the end of the day, that's why we do the camouflage so that it's less work on you and there's it helps you out in the end, but it gives you kind of a shortcut. It's a cheat code to being more successful in the field. Yeah, effectiveness for that. And that's why it goes back to Realtree Original being his least favorite effectiveness and design is priority number one always for what we do. So what's what are some of that what are some of the differences with Max seven from the I guess maybe the most recent version. Yeah so the biggest thing when I was trying to get out was with Max five, and Max seven was we have the intentions of trying to make Max five blend into flooded timber. We took that idea out the window with Max seven. So what we were able to do and really what the base that he was talking about of that muddy, muddy kind of background was really looking at more field hunting and maybe flood rice for the fields and ponds. And what does that look like? Well, we added different hues and colors and pockets of color. There's actually probably about it doesn't look like it sometimes when you look at Max seven with the way it's broken up and it's cut up sometimes, but there's about 20% less reeds, which makes the pattern less yellow and that color inside of max seven. So when you're actually out and and if you if you're in a field, whether it's Milo or corn or even winter wheat, you know, you know how those rows are built up. So we kind of looked at that as a base and then try to get that coloring right, because I've heard all these guys and for me, I'm a photographer as well. Like Tyler knows this and some of these arguments of deer or animals or whatever, they they view things in this way or this way. You know, even if a deer sees things in black and white or doesn't see color, if you're a photographer and you know how the camera and the eye works and how contrast works, if you are matching a background based off of color that you see in a 100% spectrum color spectrum, if you turn that photo into a black and white and then you're going to blend in even more. Oh, because the hues and the tones of what you're doing match exactly the hues and tones of your surroundings, Right? So just something doesn't see color, if you can match that color perfectly, are as close to possible, you're going to blend even better. So this whole idea of like, oh, we don't need to be bright on color contrast, that's that's a that's not true. That's not true. Yeah. Because, because depending on how they see things. And so that's what Bill is a big color guy. He wants to make sure that we're matching stuff and we find out that a lot of our grade tones that we have in the background, there's these little pockets, not only they come in to help our contrast, to help, you know, break up your body, but it also works well when you have that brackish water that you might be, you know, kicking up to make it look like, you know, ducks feeding and it kind of has that cloudiness that's in that background to really blend in. But it has the reeds that you kind of see. And then the other thing that we did a big time on this pattern is because I had been seeing it, I know a couple of us have been seeing it, what other people have been putting on the market from a bird's eye view and how it wasn't looking too low and how it wasn't blending in. So we did everything when we started testing was we've got drones and we flew over everything of what does it look like from the bird's point of view? And we wanted to make sure that it blend in. And so some of the first test shots we did with it when we had some digital print offs of it, we did bird's eye views and cornfields and some ponds and some other things and it blend and I was like, Holy crud, like, I can't believe we're just close already. Like, I mean, I was really, really impressed. We started showing its partners like that. When can we get it? We're like, Oh gosh, how was the first shoot? Yeah, first shoot, shoot. You know, I think I pictured drones have really changed the product testing world because, yeah, if you think about it, actually you kind of said it. You know, if we're looking from a human perspective, we're standing on the water. Someone's hiding in the cattails. How do you look? You know, But that's not what a duck sees. No. If a duck is seeing you from that perspective, they should be dead. Too late for that. Yeah. Yeah, it's all over. Camouflage isn't going to matter anymore. So, Tyler, to lunch. Tell me so. And thank you guys for. For releasing this to the public today at the Expo. When will or is it already out in the marketplace? Yeah, so, yes, it is already out in the marketplace. We have several that have already carried it. You know, a lot of the main ones with Banded and Drake already have products available. There are several gun companies. I don't know for sure. I don't know for sure which ones, but I think a lot of the main ones already are carrying the browning of Benelli. We have over in the booth along with retail. We'll have it. You know, we talked about this. I will say the biggest difficulty that we've had with Max seven has been COVID. Yeah, this has been the hardest. But people again, going back to how intricate and how tough it is to get a pattern, this photorealistic done really requires hands down and a hands on interaction with it. And unfortunately, not to get anywhere political or anything, but there's just not a lot of companies here in the states that that go through the same process or allow us to do work with it. So a lot of that is over in overseas in China and over the last two years, we haven't been able to get to China to really work. So we've been having to do a lot of that versus telecommunications. And I'll tell you what, that's trying to develop a pattern over the phone is a nightmare. You know, it's tough. I mean, and there's a lot of stuff available right now, but, you know, you can go and buy Realtree branded hoodies, hats jackets already on our store stored on us, your local licensed partners of our already carrying things. But as the fall starts to progress and we get in October and November, more and more will come available. Oh, that's great. Yeah. I do want to flex everybody, you know, got a Realtreecar.com and you can take a look at at the at the new pattern. Yeah, I think it's pretty cool. Thanks. Yeah, I think actually actually I think it's realtor.com backslash R slash Max7 and you can go straight to it. Yeah. Okay. Now that's. That's amazing. I have to say, you know, camouflaged development sounds simple. You guys make it sound. Oh, it's it's really challenging. It's Really challenging because, I mean, again, I understand why a lot of the trend is to go into simplified patterns. Are abstract patterns because you're working with simple colors and you can you can deal with that. But when you take a photo, it's a million different colors. And how the printing process goes. When you go into web print or heat transfer, you have to go from 12 colors and then heat transfer. You have to go to eight colors. So you have to come up a calculation of how to make all those million colors through the combination of just those 12 or eight sheets. So it's like a Rubik's cube. It is is it's nightmare. It is. And and, you know, we've we've got a way to figure it out and we've got it where you can do in separating it all. It's very, very complicated. But so when we see people doing it, we understand because then, you know, trying to get that to match every single time on every single substrate, on every single gun, everything else and have it look consistent across the board is extremely difficult. And most people don't want to go through the trouble of of making it that perfect. But that's what makes us different. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I tell you guys kind of wrapping things up here. I do have to I do have to say I've always wanted to be a biologist. I've always wanted to be a part of conservation duck production, giving back. But I'd have to say, you know, when someone is in the hunting industry, it's a business, right? It is about making money. But I love, love, love companies that take that extra step and recognize that they also play a vital role in conservation. And you guys, do you know, I mean, you guys you guys are the official camo conservation partner of Delta. My role is Delta Chief Conservation Officer. So, you know, I'm the guy, you know, working on one of the many guys, but, you know, working on on our field programs and to have the support of Realtree. It's amazing And I can't thank you guys enough. Thank you. Really appreciate everything. You know, obviously this is a conservation runs deep and in our company's and Delta has been a great partner and one that we're going to have hopefully for many, many years to come. I hope so. I hope so, guys. Well, great. Appreciate it. And anything that that we missed that you'd like to cover? I don't think so. I think we covered most of it. I thought about it. Yeah, we got the history of the world. But yeah. Cover go by several. Yeah. Oh, by Mack seven. Okay. Realtor.com, forward. Slash, Mack seven. Yeah, Right there. Yeah, Yeah. Okay. Thanks, Andrew. Thanks, Tom. Thank you, John. Thank you. Appreciate it, you guys.